UPDATED CONTACT INFORMATION, Wednesday, October 5
Occupy San Diego, OccupySD.org, #OccupySD, Twitter, Facebook
UPDATE FOR WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 28
Meeting to be held in San Diego at park near fountain at 1st Avenue and East Harbor Drive, 6pm.
Editor: We received the following from “Occupy San Diego”, which is planning on holding a solidarity action in support of the current “Occupy Wall Street” demonstrations that have been occurring daily since September 17th in and around Wall Street in New York City. Who knows what state the Manhattan actions will be in by time the San Diego protest rolls around, but the San Diego organizers are planning daily meetings.
SAN DIEGO-Occupy San Diego is standing in solidarity with Occupy Wall Street in NYC, and will begin a peaceful civil disobedience protest of the global financial corruption currently invading politics, media and corporations, by occupying an open space in the Gaslamp District indefinitely starting on October 7, 2011 at 4:30 pm.
We will peacefully and permanently occupy a space until a list of our demands, that will be in solidarity with Occupy Wall Street in NYC, are met by the City and County of San Diego, and by the Federal Government.
The long term and overnight occupation will include marching, teach-ins, sit-ins, break out groups and vigils for Troy Davis, a young, black man on death row, recently put to death by the state of Georgia.
We will also be reaching out to existing political activist groups and labor unions in the San Diego community to stand in solidarity with us.
Since San Diego is one of many hubs of military activity in our country, we will stand in solidarity with the American troops, who are pawns of the system, and a part of the 99% of the American people, manipulated by Wall Street and the 1%. A very large number of veterans in San Diego, and around the country, remain unemployed after returning from service in current wars, and they are encouraged to join our occupation demonstration.
Occupy San Diego will begin holding General Assembly meetings in preparation for this demonstration beginning September 27 at 6pm at the Martin Luther King Promenade Park across from the Convention Center Trolley Station, located at 5th Ave. at N Harbor Drive in downtown San Diego. Meetings will commence here daily until the permanent occupation on October 7.
About Occupy San Diego:
Only 1% of people in this country own and control a majority of the wealth, and this power has invaded into all aspects of our life – politics, media and corporations. We are the 99% and we will be quiet about this inequality no longer. We will take back for the people, what already belongs to the people – our country. For more information about Occupy San Diego visit http://www.meetup.com/occupytogether/San-Diego-CA/. and for more information about Occupy Wall Street please visit www.occupywallst.org
Occupy San Diego, OccupySD.org, #OccupySD, Twitter, Facebook
{ 91 comments… read them below or add one }
9/27/11
Hopefully, this is the beginning of wide-spread protest like that of the 60s. We do have a fascist government, although it may be “soft fascist” (until you are hit over the head by a truncheon or pepper sprayed. “The U.S. is no different from any other country” said Tom Hayden when Robert Kennedy was assassinated. It’s probably true that the “JFK” movie was right when Kevin Bacon’s character said that it’s about “who rules” and “fascism is coming.”
I’m a retired woman, living fairly comfortably on a small pension with Social Security. If “Occupy Wall Street” comes to Portland, Oregon , I may get involved. The protesters are not “old hippies” or anything like that. They are young people who “did things right” but can’t find jobs due to corporate policies, “99ers” and others who’ve been hurt by the system. The rallies and protests are as legitimate as those going on anywhere else in the world.
Jean
I would love to participate if it remains a peaceful demonstration. Some of these commentators sound like they’re itching for a fight. Will someone be there to keep them in line? If sanity is not kept, the press will focus on the conflicts and not on the content of the issues. The issues are too serious an to be ruined by hot heads. Concerned Grandmother
I’m sorry. But even though I wholeheartedly agree with the right to peacefully protest, it wont get anything done. It sounds like the kids have the right idea, but a peaceful occupation will get broken up by the police, and within about 6 hours. Now, I am in no way a supporter of a riot, or any other violent protest, but it seems from what I’ve seen across the country, with these occupations, are just a group of people sticking it to the man.. by causing a traffic problem for about 4-5 hours, before the police arrest/tear gas/ etc everyone. Im sorry to say, we dont live in the 60’s anymore, and peaceful protest wont work. We have evolved into a violent society, and the recent events in the middle east are a perfect example of that. They got things changed, but look at what it took (in Egypt)..
What!!! “Moderation?” Are you involved in CENSORSHIP???
Jean
Jean, all comments of brand new commenters to this site are held in “moderation” until they are approved. Yours were approved, obviously. Now that you have had comments approved, you may come back and leave comments at any time or post. As long as you abide by our rules for comments, like no racist, sexist comments or comments that maliciously deride people. You can see our full rules in the above Navigation Bar.
Having comments sit in “moderation” until they are approved is not censorship. Censorship of speech is something that occurs or not between a citizen and the government. We are not the government, ahem, can’t you tell? So, welcome, and we look forward to more of your comments.
i cant wait to get maced and tazed for no reason
I’ll be there. Hope many of you wonderful San Diegans will join.
I plan on being there. This could wind up to be the best thing to happen to America since the Government quit The Draft. I’ve followed Occupy Wall Street since Day 1, and am very happy that San Diego is joining in solidarity. If we can do this right(w/o violence)in Freedom Park as well as major cities across the nation we can effect real change in America. It’s time we all take a stand against the NWO, and the accompanying misery it has brought. Enough is enough. Let’s take our country back! Tim
Remember, short shallow breaths are the key to beating tear gas!
Have fun!
Tear gas is kids play.. No need to worry about that. It won’t kill you. The tazers on the other hand might. I’ll be there with my bullhorn ready to spread the word!
Down with the NWO!
I’m assuming that NWO means New World Order? Yes? And just which New World Order are you referring to? Is that the one with black helicopters coming to take your children?
I’m guessing Frank knows there is no “new world order” just the same crooks (appx. 6000 by some expert guesses) who’ve been pulling the strings and pocketing the filthy lucre for nearly a century now.
I sense he, as most scholars of socioeconomics also know, the label of NWO simply denotes a believer in conspiracy theories. Of course the concerns that motivate the beliefs are real. We will not however have a “one world government” anytime soon and there are not evil villains conspiring to do so.
As for the black helicopters, well no they aren’t black- just very dark blue with tinted windows, San Diego has four I believe, Eurocopters paid for by a DHS grant- about a dozen cities got them after 9/11, San Diego’s proximity to the border justifying the need. Each carries a sensor pod on its belly costing well into 7 figures, and relays its info back to a ground support team. The pilot’s role is merely to put the platform where directed, at the time this info was available some years ago its equipment included the obvious- traditional night vision, optical cameras for daytime with zoom in the hundreds of power, and FLIR which can spot a squirrel under a bush from 10,000ft. altitude.
I’d be speculating but it would not surprise me to find in the years since they have incorporated either a MMW/TWS (millimeter wave radar through wall surveillance) Which you could purchase unclassified crude versions of over 3 years ago:
http://www.camero-tech.com/pdf/Special_Operations_Summer_2008.pdf
or backscatter X-Ray capability into an airborne ready sensor pod suite, such as the ground vehicle based units seen here:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101025/11370211578/x-ray-scanner-vans-not-just-being-sold-to-law-enforcement.shtml
Scary ****. Scarier to think SCOTUS decision in US vs. Kyllo (2000) banned FLIR from domestic scanning without a warrant-yet the news shows them flaunting this every time a police chase is shown using it and people don’t seem to care. This is miles past that, they can see right in your house now, are they “keeping us safe”?
Those helicopters, well in the twilight hours they look black to me.
I love what the banner on the L.A. site says: The Revolution is happening – just not in the news! This is pitifully true. I’m wondering if the foreign press is picking any of this up. Has anyone seen anything? I’m going to go trolling on the Internet and see what I can find. World opinion can be a powerful tool and I’m really hoping news about this starts cropping up here and there.
BTW: can’t get on the occupysandiego2011 site — it goes to the LA site — my email to them (the SD group) bounced back as well.
The revolution will not be televised.
I had the same problem with the link to the Occupy San Diego site, but found another you can try… http://www.meetup.com/occupytogether/San-Diego-CA/
I’ve updated the post with another link and email address. When I went to that site and tried their link to the Facebook event I got this message, “Event Unavailable – We’re sorry, this Event isn’t working right now. Please try again later.”
I live in Australia and we have heard very little. there was one segment on the Wall Street protest on a morning television show. I do not know why we are not hearing more about this. I think that it is going to be huge.
Hi all!
For over a month now, I have been planning a rally set for Nov 5 in front of Horton Plaza. It has been difficult gaining attention for it as it is not affiliated with any national movement. It is simply one woman who has Had Enough. Not a politician, just another person trying desperately to retain a foothold in the middle class and, like so many others, losing that battle. It will be a great time! I urge you to check out the page on Facebook. http://www.facebook.com/kickingassforthemiddleclass We are IN THIS TOGETHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Check out al jazeera on the net. They had two great articles on it. MSNBC ripped the cops a new one last night for their shenanigans in NY. Also, i heard the BBC has covered it.
Shoot, I knew I should have stayed up and watched MSNBC! I didn’t see it on the portion of Ed I caught or the portion of Lawrence I saw. Missed Rachel altogether. GOOD FOR THEM, whoever it was! I find it fascinating that there was such extensive coverage by the MSM of events in the Middle East this past year, but when the same thing begins to happen here at home it’s whole different ballgame — maybe if we ignore it, it will go away? Cowards!
I finally understand what “the revolution will not be televised” means. My little family will definitely be there.
The press in the UK is covering OWS. Citizen journalists and word-of-mouth are spreading the word.
Amy:
In a cynical way, I *too* understand what “the revolution will not be televised” means. I have been trying for over a month to promote a rally and do my part to start a resistance here in San Diego. I have sent countless invitations via Facebook, passed out flyers, tried to social-network as best I can in this wheelchair to which I am confined.
Well, in just about one day, “Occupy San Diego” got more page likes and pledges of attendance than I have mustered in a month of hard and continuous work. I cynically wonder if it’s because … well, to be very honest: I’m not a “brand.” I’ve never been on TeeVee. And honestly, though I hate sounding this cynical, I wonder if my fellow libs, who’ve repeatedly ignored my inviations to “walk the walk” with me, need first legitimacy from that magic box in our living rooms. You know, the box where the Kardashians live. I’m sorry to post this; I’m usually a ton more polite. :)
Actually, this specific movement gained the majority of its initial momentum due to a Canadian, anti-media magazine “Adbusters” prodding its U.S. readers to take charge. I know a handful of people back east who read this publication regularly and a few of them are down in NYC right now doing their part. Anyways, I can understand your cynicism with the televised side of things but I think it’s a bit misplaced considering the Occupy Wall Street movement really has not been on the television at all–it’s been entirely a social media, word-of-mouth movement, albeit with a kick-start by Adbusters.
Cindi, I realize that you linked your name to your Facebook site but many readers may not so I will add the link here, KickingAssForTheMiddleClass. Also, here is the link to the event flyer.
I understand your frustration, as do many of your fellows libs, people who “walk the walk” every single day. I applaud your efforts and encourage you not to give up, but realize that it’s hard to predict what will capture people’s attention and inspire them to action.
The Occupy movement certainly did not become popular through televised exposure. It may well be that its “illegitimacy” and total lack of main stream media coverage for so long is what has inspired so many people. We all need to keep reaching out to each other. Walk the walk with the Occupy San Diego and invite them to Kick Ass with you!
#OccupyWallStreet Protests: Are Social Media Revolutions Powerful or Pathetic?
San Diego We’re HERE!
Welcome to the resistance!
Any particular reason we are waiting until next week to get this started? These protests are happening now!
Change is no longer a dream but here to stay let’s hit the streets
I will be there! I hope all of the San Diego Anonymous members come as well!
MEETINGS ARE AT 1ST AND E HARBOR – NOT 5TH – SORRY FOR THE CONFUSIOn!
Never give up…Never give up… Sir Winston Churchill “We shall fight on the beaches,we shall fight on the landing grounds,we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,we shall fight in the hills,we shall never surrender” With the fervor and spirit of America and Britain past, be prepared year after year to push for truth and justice. Educate and love each other. Non violence has to prevail. Mahatma Gandhi…”Strength does not come from physical capacity. It come from indomitable will.”
America is a shinning light. Money is good but it is not God.
Matt Taibbi…The first thing you need to know about Goldman Sachs is that its everywhere.The worlds powerful investment bank is a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity. Relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money.”
Never give up…Never give up
I’m fed up. The people around me are fed up.
We want systemic change.
We will be there.
I’ll be there! :)
This is about Now.
This is about Us.
This is about all of Posterity.
This is about Corporate Greed, Malicious Spending and Injustice.
This is about our Employment, our Housing and our Health-care.
This is about a Media Blackout ignoring the Voice of our People.
This is about our Parents Retirement, our Veterans Welfare, our Community Conditions and our High Interest Rates.
Pause your Aim. OCCUPY THE STREETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Befriend our People!!!!!!!!!
Save our Country.
Peaceful Means for Constitutional Rights.
Spread The Word. Act Now. GLOBAL ACTION.
A small group of demonstrators marched through the streets of downtown Los Angeles on Saturday to show their support for ‘Occupy Wall Street’ protesters in New York City.
#OCCUPY AMERICA #OCCUPY TOGETHER #OCCUPY WALL STRRET #OCCUPY LOS ANGELES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
# OCCUPY SAN DIEGO. LET’S GO!
IRENE, Maybe you should just watch from afar. The ONLY ones ” itching for a fight” during any of the ” Occupy” protests are brought by the Police! Yea, it might get violent, only if the Police decide it to be…
OWS SD participants, please take some advice from a veteran of the 2002-3 anti-war movement. STAY ON MESSAGE, and keep that message simple and to the point! Troy Davis, Animal Rights, Palestinian statehood, etc. are all very important to some people, but when the 99% message is garbled in a sea of conflicting messages, it becomes that much easier for TPTB to push the mute button. Mumia has waited a long time, he can wait another couple of months.
As much as some of these other issues are close to my heart, I have to agree with this. The media is sniping regarding an “unclear message” and on a personal level, my brother who was initially very interested in participation in his city, is now backing off because he perceives it the same way. We have to be CLEAR about what we want and stay on topic. This was often in my mind an issue in most of the anti-war protests in San Diego — in which I nevertheless participated — and I found it very frustrating.
To all those who seem angry, or more inclined to post clever put downs of of “the system” and to you who appear cynical.
Our simple presence is all that is needed to add to the momentum of the spirit that is growing by the exercise of our First Amendment right to free expression,assembly and to petition the government for a redress of our grievances:
Showing up means we’re not ok with increased poverty rates, stagnant wages, the collapse of the real estate market, a grade of “D” by the American Society of Civil Engineers on infrastructure, and our schools, roads and bridges a disgrace.
Everybody knows we haven’t lost our ability to come together, as 9/11, earthquakes, fires, hurricanes, blackouts and every other catastrophe shows.
Let’s envision the peaceful act of simply showing up as we would for our families, friends and neighbors in times of crisis.
What specifically is it that Occupy San Diego is asking the feds to DO?
That’s a great question. The article says this:
“We will peacefully and permanently occupy a space until a list of our demands, that will be in solidarity with Occupy Wall Street in NYC, are met by the City and County of San Diego, and by the Federal Government.”
…and yet, even in NYC, they have not articulated what they want (other than to camp out in the park and shut down arteries of commerce. I’ll restate what the previous commenter asked:
“What specifically is it that Occupy San Diego is asking the feds to DO?”
It’s difficult to get behind a movement with no specific goal.
Thank you for addressing and adding your voice to my question, Brian B. :)
…and now, we can see the demands:
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/10/good-lord-the-occupy-wall-street-imbeciles-release-their-idiotic-demands-20-minimum-wage-and-across-the-board-debt-forgiveness-for-all/
Demands #1 and #9 contradict each other.
Demand #2? Well, that’s been tried in the UK and Canada….and failed.
Demand #3 leads to higher unemployment
Demand #4 leads to lower educational standards for all and restricts the so desperately needed vocational education.
Demand #5 would, combined with #2, lead higher taxes on everyone, lower energy output, and most likely, rationing and mass deaths.
Demands #6 and #7 turbocharge the effects of demands #5 so I guess of the goal is mass homicide, that’ll get ‘er done more quickly
Demand #8—Meh. Okay although I think that’s addressed in the Constitution. I wouldn’t object to that demand though.
Demand #10—sounds good but you’d have to verify all voters, too.
Demand #11—now this is where they take complete leave of their senses. Can you imagine if every debt was forgiven? There would be no future lending, which means…the economy completely stops…not slows…stops.
Demand #12—you can’t outlaw what is a voluntary, private business
Demand #13—completely reasonable if you abololish the Wagner Act and NLRB. There is nothing wrong with voluntary associations that don’t require the use of force.
I sincerely hope the Gaslamp occupants don’t YouTube these demands or get caught on the news channels issuing them. They’ll be branded loons and remain unemployable in perpetuity. Even the socialists think this list is nuts.
Interesting that you don’t include the actual list along with your rather extreme interpretation of it. Let people read it and decide for themselves.
I linked to it.
Brian- The link to the “demands” is actually in a proposed list in a forum section. So ok everyone, take a look at that proposed list and discuss:
Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending “Freetrade” by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.
Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.
Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.
Demand four: Free college education.
Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.
Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.
Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America’s nuclear power plants.
Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.
Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.
Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.
Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the “Books.” World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the “Books.” And I don’t mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.
Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.
Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.
These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy.
You’re right that turns out to be a “proposed” list-(you were probably looking at it while I was posting it below) but unless you’re privvy to something we don’t know about him or read his mind, I don’t think he was trolling or meant to be dishonest about that. The page he posted suggests at first it’s an actual list and the source they quote IS occupywallst.org. .
Moreover if one googles “occupy wall street demands” the site he posts comes up #8.
IMO he went searching for the demands and that’s what he came up with, it’s presumptuous to assume it was malicious or dishonest.
For the 2 cents it’s worth. Note that ToJoinorNotToJoin(those crazy random caps, cut that out!) also presented them as actual not proposed, as did I.
BUT ANYhoo I hope we can all agree they are bat-shyte crazy and would create utter chaos if implemented.
Anna:
Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. – Sure but why start a trade war that will hurt ALL? Tariffs will also drive prices way up. We don’t have any more money to spare as it is? Why not rather level the playing field by reducing the insane amount of regulation and taxation that domestic manufacturers have to deal with? That will make it cost-effective for them to bring most of the jobs/factories back here.
Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. Of course there is room for improvement but there are countless examples of how government control of such things increases cost and decreases service. We can get a lot more by allowing more competition and reducing regulation. This “land of the free” is one of the most regulated societies in the world right now.
Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment. – Pretty much parallel to “Demand one” but if this were the case please tell me why a vast majority would even WANT to work when they could just sit at home and get a “living wage”? Or are you proposing that able-bodied people be forced to work? That wasn’t very successful in places like Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Pol Pot’s Cambodia so I really don’t think we want to try it here.
Demand four: Free college education. – There is no such thing as “free education” someone HAS to pay for it. And who do you think will pay for the professors, buildings, equipment, supplies? Why the taxpayers of course. But then if people can be paid a “living wage” for not working, how many will bother to work? That will leave few, if any taxpayers and if you even tax them at 100% there won’t be enough money to pay for “free” college education.
Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand. – Every single alternative energy system is fraught with problems. Not one is even close to viability. many will NEVER be. We have to be realistic. Fossil fuels will be with us for a long time, maybe even forever – a better tack would be to fast-track more efficient use of such fuels, like the high-efficiency turbo-diesels in Europe.
Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now. – I have no problem with this EXCEPT that past government performance would indicate that if we committed one Trillion dollars to infrastructure NOW, we’d be lucky if even a few thousand dollars worth actually made it to being built.
Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America’s nuclear power plants. – Sure and what are you going to replace those with” Coal plants pollute less but you guys don’t want those either. Hydro, messes up rivers, kills fish. Wind isn’t nearly enough and kills birds and the Kennedys don’t like seeing them. Wave? Not enough and do you really want to string more poser lines from the coast to the heartland? Solar? The manufacturing pollutes like crazy, they have a limited life resulting in toxic disposal issues and they are also not nearly efficient enough, unless you deck over vast areas of desert and we don’t want to do that either…
So why not go to “new nuclear technologies” like Thorium “micro-nukes” instead?
Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment. We’re well on the way to that anyway.
Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live. – Sure why not allow all the gang lords south of the border free access to our markets. We can also have protection rackets, beheadings. The whole of the world can come here and work in sweatshops – even the Chinese will complain that we’re undercutting their labor rates. What do you think that will do to your job prospects?
Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system. – Sure but PLEEZE no “hanging chads” or “I can see what the voter’s intent really was”. While we’re at it let’s have max-duration of 6-week election election campaigns and strictly-limited funding of candidates too – that means no union money as well as no corporate money.
Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. – Wow, that’s one way to collapse the entire world economy in an instant. This demand more than any other is absolute fantasy. Rather school people into responsible debt management – That should go for politicians of all parties most of all.
Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies. – If you’re going to get rid of all debt these disappear anyway and if you’re not going to get rid of debt, why, do you want to be able to borrow as much as you want with no reporting or control? That kind of thing is what got most of us into this economic mess in the first place.
Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union. – I will add a couple of conditions to this: 1. the ballot must be ABSOLUTELY secret. 2. Unions shall be banned from any political activity.
These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy. – No, these demands would kill the entire WORLD economy. There will be NO jobs, no education or healthcare (no one to pay for these). We probably won’t have much of a country left so “open borders” will be moot.
I’ll also suggest replacing the mantra “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need” with: “From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed”.
Have a nice day.
LukeJohn, I think you are expecting me to try to talk you out of being a republican/libertarian. Not going there. Have a nice day.
PS- OWS has not presented any demands. There is a forum on their website in which all manner of people have presented their views on the topic.
Nope, I have no desire for conversion either by you or of you.
;o)
Just wanted to lay out some of the idiocy floating around and there’s plenty of it on all sides of the political spectrum.
Brian,
I don’t think you gave enough weight to the word Proposed in the forum post. The title of the LloydJHart post in the forum section of the OWS website is “Proposed List Of Demands For Occupy Wall St Movement!” If one had only read the “Gateway Pundit” report account for which you supplied the link, that might not have been obvious. If the reader did follow the provided link to view the original site (as I’m sure you did) that would have been fairly apparent. They may also have discovered that the LloydJHart post isn’t the only proposal. I discovered another one by GandhiKingMindset, also using the phrase PROPOSED LIST OF DEMANDS …. This list of eight items focuses on congressional demands, but is also somewhat vague. I don’t believe there’s an “official” version yet (although I may have missed it).
Seems to me, though, that most of your observations (e.g. “[universal healthcare has] been tried in the UK and Canada…and failed”) are not much wackier than the original proposals.
Thanks for that! I noticed something there in point #2… about “prosecuting the wall st. criminals for causing the 2008 financiual crisis…”
Do they really believe that the blame for America’s current financial state, now and future, is the doing of Wall St. and began anywhere near that time frame?
That’s incredibly naive, and echoes the sentiments of people who blame the “real estate/mortgage debacle” for our bad economy.
That was a symptom/result of our bad economy, not the cause. Same with Wall St, really. Wall St. has turned to cannibalism investing, for some time now, (my term, there may be better ones) and the mortgages were a lesson in that.
There is no real economic growth in America, because there is no manufacturing going on. That goes back to the 90’s.
As that sector of our economy withered, Wall St. attempted to turn junk rate mortgages into an investment vehicle, it was not self sustaining. Why?
People across America had bought homes they defaulted on the payments for, because they lost their factory jobs.
Without viable growth vehicles, i.e; a man with an idea for a product who needs your money to build a factory and produce it, all Wall St. had left was to cash in on the selling off of American assets. First mortgages, then corporations.
They will never again have viable new factory starts to finance because China ignores our patent rights, copyrights and all intellectual properties.
Doesn’t anyone understand?
Global Socialism. It’s what you wanted. Sweatshops, can’t have those! Let’s give the third world what we have because we have so much.
Clinton opened the valves of the floodgates. Helped corporations move offshore, while fighting for human rights for the Chinese.
Doesn’t seem like such a good idea now that we’re gettting “down” with the oppressed masses of the third world, does it?
One big, polluted, impoverished planet.
My question seems to have been answered. For anyone else who is still looking for the list of Occupy demands, here is a link that doesn’t involve having to see a rather weird website first:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/
Well I’m glad you posted that link, I can give an interpretation in just two words:
THEY’RE INSANE.
I will allow the demands themselves to substantiate this interpretation.
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Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending “Freetrade” by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.
Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.
Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.
Demand four: Free college education.
Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.
Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.
Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America’s nuclear power plants.
Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.
Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.
Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.
Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the “Books.” World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the “Books.” And I don’t mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.
Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.
Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.
These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy.
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So these people wasnt to disrupt society and the daily business of more sensible people until this list of demands is met… look there are a lot of good intentions in some of these folks and we need to overhaul the system, I can’t disagree but I doubt many people supporting this have actually even read this list, if you do and support these as demands, and want to bring the country to a standstill until you get them, you need some sense knocked into you! Let’s hope it doesn’t get to the point where the police need to be the ones to do it.
Please ignore my other (stupid) post as while I DO think the writer of that 13 demand list should have sense knocked into him, that list is not theirs.
Apparantly acording to businessinsider, THIS may be it:
http://nplusonemag.com/occupywallstreet
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To repeal the Citizens United Supreme Court decision (through a constitutional amendment)
To remove the bull sculpture from Wall Street (as suggested to us by a man who walked by dressed as a banker but wearing a noose instead of a tie)
Some form of debt cancellation (either for everyone or just for students)
Pay-as-you-go military intervention (so that wars could not be waged without Congress agreeing to finance them immediately)
Taxes on small financial transactions (one version of this is known as a Tobin tax)
Full employment
A social wage or guaranteed income (also described as a negative income tax)
Universal care centers (for children and the elderly)
Reinstating the Glass-Steagall act (a banking reform passed in 1933 and partially repealed in 1980)
Paid sick leave for all working Americans
Greater political transparency in general
—————————————-
nothing to bust heads over. perhaps the fact it was easier to find the crazy list than that one indicates a smear, a coverup, to discredit the movement.
a CONSPIRACY?
let’s get ’em.
So we can’t tell what the legitimate demands are. This brings us back to the original question, asked by ToJoinOrNotToJoin
This whole mob is eerily shaping up like the movie “Dog Day Afternoon”
Listen, there’s lot’s of counter propaganda that aims to paint the 99% movement as aimless and without cohesion. A big reason for that might be that the crimes in question are as voluminous as the reasons for why we protest. Me personally, I will be there for my parents who gave me as much as they could, for my grandparents who gave everything to be in America, my wife and child who I hope to give all I can.
I personally would love to see labor make a strong comeback as our 4th branch of government. As flawed as they are, UNIONS are despised by the 1%. UNIONS are Kryptonite to the 1%. Anything that the 1% is against must be a good thing.
Hans, I’ve been either a Dem or a Green all my life; I’ve lent my voice, my feet, my questionable artistic talents, my energy and my money to Housing Now, the March on Washington for Women’s Issues, the peace movement against both wars in Iraq and a small but extremely vocal protest against the election of David Duke, among others.
All of these gatherings had specific demands, whether they were few or numerous.
I am by no means happy to observe that so far, as trendy as it is, the current Occupy movements seem little more to me than politically-themed raves. It’s great that people are having fun raising awareness about these issues; but are they? Who ISN’T angry about the poor economy? I don’t want to just mill around in a self-righteously funky crowd, even if I agree with their general tone. How can We the People accomplish something real without knowing what that is? All these lovely intangibles people are rallying around (family, the future, hope) are lovely. And intangible.
What do you think is needed for “unions to make a comeback” and how do you propose agitating for that as part of this current Occupation?
I don’t mean to be harsh but I’m frustrated with the vagueness of contemporary political activism. We might as well all hold hands and ask for candy to fall from the sky as make a lot of noise for such general sentiments, no matter how noble they are. And I’m by no means saying they’re not noble.
I’m still asking a general question & would be happy if anyone else takes it up and tells me what I’m not seeing. A list of specific demands by the Occupy organizers would definitely be a step in the right direction. Maybe there is one somewhere that hasn’t been sufficiently publicized? (But if so, why not?)
While they were a great idea when America’s industrial revolution had 14 year olds working that many hours a day for pennies, for more than a few decades all they have served as is a vehicle for some of the 99% to get a shot in at oppressing and stealing from their own. Worse, they become a wedge in between company and employer, discouraging pride in your work and creating animosity where there needn’t be. It also makes it difficult to fire slackers who get good at gaming the system.
I say this from the perspective of working in an AFL-CIO (IAM) small-medium sized manufacturer in the Silicon Valley in the ’80’s. They pretty much created a circus, starting up trouble whenever possible to fool us into thinking there was a reason they skimmed, IIRC, about 20% or more off our hourly wages.
In the end unions haven’t helped Americans keep high paying jobs, they’ve driven them offshore and union officials could care less as long as their hand was in the till grabbing a part of the dues. On paper it seems like a noble concept. The leaders of our local that I saw could have been stand-ins for the parts in “Goodfellas”.
Perhaps this does not describe all locals, please don’t think I am implying it does- I do like my kneecaps and enjoy walking from time to time.
As for the 99% being aimless and without cohesion, well damn I sure hope they are- read that list of demands I C/P’d above, if they all read and approved that then we can say the lot of them are looney toons, not just the few that gave birth to that mess.
After much research and prodding by my 20ish younger sister (who tends to be a bit extreme in her political angst, as so many young folks are) I WILL BE THERE. With my children. I come in peace, as we all should. Let us recall the movement our parents were a part of. The most moving imagery and lasting impressions to me are of those who gathered with a spirit of togetherness, love, and support for a common cause; THE PEOPLE. Come and spread peace. Let the numbers speak.
Thankfully a few in San Diego have the guts to stand up for themselves against the wealthy few who have once again (1890s, 1920s) in our history , tried to control the government and media (e.g., David Koch) for their own ends.
What’s this about? Separating Money interests from govt. Dylan Ratigan of MSNBC has even suggested a constitutional amendment (getmoneyout .com) to effect this because nothing else will stop the lobbying and greed of congressmen (like ours!). There will always be doubters and the happily ignorant. Read a little of Occupy Wall St in the Huffington Post if you’re wondering why. Ask why this is a national movement with sprouts in most major cities – even sleepy, happy San Diego!
I am not worried about police, when we had an extremely loud fund raiser for Japans tsunami the police who were called donated a bunch of money. In LA the police are being super cool according to occupiers. occupysd.org is the website and there is already a video up and printable flyers http://youtu.be/JcuQ5okHS4E . I may only be able to be there half the time but I am excited.
I thought San Diego was a Libertarian paradise?
Let’s see about that!
If you are mad, wait until you hear this- I got thrown out of my job after 20 years because of the California right to work law. I could not get any assistance at all because they accused me of being a drug addict- and they refused to have me tested. I went trrough at least 10 lawyers including the “free” work law center downtown. No one would help. Since then I have been going to college for my 4th degree and had been renting out my house to pay the bills. Unfortunately, the house was stolen at gunpoint, so now I live in my car and am trying very hard to get through school. I have no money and of course cannot find work. I have friends who literly are living in the woods because of this mess in this country.
After reading all the comments and going to the GA meeting the other eve, all I can say is, those demands are insane! Do you plan on re-naming the country too? If the list above are the actual demands, I now believe this is a planned co-opted movement by the Communist party..
Land of the Free and home of the Brave???? Yea right!
You’re not going to have a revolution with those demands! Eventually what you’ll get is a bloody civil war! Good luck with that! I WON’T be a part of it!
Let’s see- a peaceful growing group of people have thus far presented their grievances and have been provided an online forum in which participants can offer their demands. I truly do not understand how a peaceful assemblage of individuals exchanging ideas on how to redress their grievances points to “bloody civil war.”
Expect me.
I understand you and most probably don’t see what one has to do with the other. If it is co-opted (I believe it has been, George Soro’s has just come out and supports this ” movement”)… Common sense tells me that since some of the 1% are now coming out in support of their supposed demise they have control of it and will now use the poor and angry to push their agendas. Only time will tell, I know history and also how intelligence agencies within this country have ALWAYS managed to use grassroots movements to push their own agendas via infiltration. I can tell you with a certainty that there are people within the current (and former) regime that want nothing more than complete and total chaos to break out and will attempt to blame it on one side or another.
In just the last week, I’ve noticed lots of unusual corporate support for the movement as well as allot more corporate media coverage (all owned and controlled by the 1%). That tells me, they have assumed some sort of influence in this movement. It happened to the tea party. First they ignored them, then they tried to coax them into violence, and when that failed, they had enough influence within the movement to control it. That is why it went from a grassroots movement to the Republican controlled joke it is today. They already tried to initiate violence in New York and failed, now they control it… Only time will tell (by the way, the less organized and focused a movement is, the easier it is to control and they have many decades of being the best in the world at it! Just read your history folks! EVERY single grassroots movement has been co-opted throughout American history!
Sorry, it’s just what I see…
REVO – You are way too cynical for your own good. Seriously, lighten up some. You can’t see the forest for the trees (what other pithy statement can I use?). Even though governments and rightwing forces may try to control movements, it is simply not true that as you say “EVERY single grassroots movement has been co-o0pted throughout American history”. Was the movement to free the slaves co-opted? Was the movement to fight for the right of women to vote co-opted? Was the struggle for the right to have unions and collectively bargain co-opted? Was the Civil Rights movement that confronted the Jim Crow system co-0pted? Was the feminist movement of the 60 and 70s co-opted? Was the anti-Vietnam war movement co-opted? Was the movement to end apartheid in South Africa co-opted? Was the anti-draft movement of the eighties co-opted? Was the anti-nuke movement co-opted?
I was in a couple over the decades and we’re still waiting for our checks from those “who took over”. Geez, dude, where are they?
Frank, well if you are seriously waiting for the 1% to send you a check because you were used by them a few times I’m sorry, you won’t get one. And yes, all those movements were co-opted. When the slaves were ” freed” as you say, they were not free, we all just became slaves too! Like I said ” READ YOUR HISTORY FOLKS” …. What? I’m a loon? Read the history of ” Blacks Law” if you would before you come back and call be crazy. Womens rights co-opted? lol are you serious? That’s the easiest one out there! Read the 10 planks of communism sir! One of them is directly aimed at infiltrating the ” Womans rights movement in order to take women out of the home so your friendly government can spend more time with them and also to make women think they don’t need a man to take care of them, thus increse the divorce rate, (worked like a charm!), Unions? You mean the same unions started by crime bosses? lol seriously? The part of HISTORY you’d want to catch up on for info on the infiltration by the CIA into the Anti Vietnam War movement is called ” The Pike Commity Hearings ” Mr Frank…. I could continue, but your not going to send me a check for history class… You can lead a horse to water… But to answer your questions easily ” YES”
Again, you’d have to actually to some real research, it’s not going to be on TV
this dude’s whack. please seat him at the back of the bus to nowhere. (if you let cynicism take over then the bad guys have won.)
“infiltrating the ” Womans rights movement in order to take women out of the home so your friendly government can spend more time with them and also to make women think they don’t need a man to take care of them, thus increse the divorce rate… ”
LMFAO! It’s thinking like that that has increased the divorce rate!
REVO, you are whacked! Seriously, the “ten planks of communism”??? And then you say that WE should read our history??? Wait, till Patty gets a hold of your latest comment, sir (or is it mam?).
“Like I said ” READ YOUR HISTORY FOLKS”, REVO’s right. You take any US History textbook circa 1950 and compare it to one currently in us. Let’s say the excursion is eyeopening. From a per world war ii perspective. If your serious about the “Occupy Wall St.” movement, go to eBay, Amazon where ever and get a pre World War II World and U.S. history textbook.
One of the prime factors behind corporate and political support of “women’s rights” has been to get more workers, more soldiers, for their factories, their armies.
When women stayed home, few were available to be worker bees.
No don’t get me wrong, I firmly believe that EVERY person should be free to follow their dreams, use their talents but I can see how this has been cynically manipulated by the super-rich.
REVO,
Your comments sound like ‘Its better to curse one candle than to light the darkness’.
Why are you on this website, if not looking for hope? Do you have NO ideas to
contribute, or are you a grumpy book reviewer, too afraid to compose yourself?
If you’re looking for a final platform this early, better wait for the elections and get
more of the same. In the meantime, just sit on your EYORE and wait for the world
to please you, just as it has.
Rick, the world does not please me in the least bit, that’s what brought me to this site in the first place. I’m sorry that I actually am bringing a little REALITY to the table. I wasn’t aware that this was a forum for dreamers only. My idea was to be a part of a peaceful movement that had an actual GOAL! Not a list of demands as big as the Declaration of Independence, One Protest, One Demand. That would be my suggestion. A movement against the 1% (do you even know who the 1% are?), NOW SUPPORTED by the same 1%. Wow, should be easy to get what you want, or what someone else at the movement wants since it’s all over the board and all… Careful what you ask for.
I’m so sorry that you’re upset that Occupy didn’t approach you with a powerpoint presentation and a list of potential ideas for you to peruse. They didn’t ask me either. Read Howard Zinn’s A People’s History. These rag-tag uprisings HAVE facilitated real change in the past. The UAW takeover of auto plants back in the thirties prompted many of our most basic labor laws; the IWW scared the shit out both the commies and the elites–they paid a high price, but change did occur.
REVO, after 40 years of fighting for social justice you are the second person I’ve ever seen interpret he planks from the manifesto in that way; the other was Joe McCarthy.
Given the facts of income distribution in the United States, the trends in real middle class incomes and poverty, the failure of policy to do much to change these trends, the government bailouts of the only class that’s benefited from the recovery so far, the absence of clear punishment for the financial and political institutions that helped inflate the debt bubble that continues to squeeze economies across the globe, and the dysfunctionality of the current political system, why is anyone asking what the Occupy Wall Street protests are about? The more interesting question is: what took so long for such protests to show up?
Oh, yes indeed! What HAS taken so long? Well said.
“And the great owners, who must lose their land in an upheaval, the great owners with access to history, with eyes to read history and to know the great fact: when property accumulates in too few hands it is taken away. And that companion fact: when a majority of the people are hungry and cold they will take by force what they need. And the little screaming fact that sounds through all history: repression works only to strengthen and knit the repressed.” – John Steinbeck – Grapes of Wrath
If you are so concerned about the country, I have 3 questions:
1) Where were you during the Tea Party?
2) Do you know that Karl Marx was wrong? His argument contains no explanation of what absolute good is found in pure labor, and value is not inherent soley to labor. Capital also has value and is a key component in the creation of wealth. His flaw was comingling the concepts of value and merit. It you want to argue that merit is an attribute of labor, I can see your point.
3) Do you understand that Capitalism was invented to empower the individual and end slavery? Adam Smith was a moral philosopher. The point of capitalism is to allow each person’s individual uniqueness to contribute to society through free markets. To reject capitalism, is to reject your own unique identity and value. In religious terms, it is to reject the concept of a soul.
I am outraged at our government, but we have the greatest document in human history to fall back upon: The U.S. Constitution. We need to restore Constitutional Law not destroy human freedoms. People are too corrupt to rule over other people, only just laws can be applied fairly and for the common good.
You can read, oppose and comment on my thoughts
1. I was holding my nose during the Tea Party- death panels? second amendment remedies? get government out of my medicare? if not ballots, then bullets? In fact, I’m still holding my nose. *
2. “We can either have democracy in this country or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of the few, but we can’t have both.” Louis Brandeis
3. Economic power=Political power (see #2)
* That being said, it was illuminating, valuable to read this open letter from a former tea party adherent to occupy wall street.
http://www.reddit.com/r/occupywallstreet/comments/kyjo2/an_open_letter_and_warning_from_a_former_tea/
I am ashamed to read some of your postings. Things will never change in this country with people who are afraid to stand up to what is wrong. How much longer must we continue to suffer while the rich and elite live a life we will never see? How much longer must we be slaves to coroporate America? Why are we able to bailout the banks and huge corporations but no one is there to bail us out?? This is not right. And yes peaceful protest is needed but in order for it to work we must stand united. We must say no more and enough is enough. This is the United States of America so let’s start becoming more united and stand for what we deserve as human beings, liberty, justice, and more importantly FREEDOM!! GOD BLESS those peaceful protestors all around the world and may GOD bless a NEW America!!
The Federal Reserve lends money to banks at artificially low interest rates that they use to finance deals or make loans and other investments. Given the fed’s monopoly control of the money supply, this makes the whole banking system an insider’s game. This allows the bankers to get rich and some of those ill gotten gains flow to Wall Street. A gold standard would force banks to rise and fall on their own and would return the money supply to a form that could not be manipulated. Do “Occupy Wall Street” protesters favor a gold standard for U.S. currency? If not, what should be done about the federal reserve making bankers rich?
I’m 50 years old. Successful all my life…now fighting hard to survive.
We have our moment here to do something wonderful and the young people have the guts to get it started. Thank God, or whomever you praise, that the new generation is aware of the terrible situation we citizens find ourselves in and have the willpower to try to stop it.
The list of demands certainly needs work! Be sure to have some more experienced input before something like that gets published. The opposition is looking hard for anything to make the protestors look bad. Be very careful. Keep to the facts, keep to reality.
One of the major things we need to accomplish is stopping the corporations from running our government by buying our slimy politicians. MSNBC announced a petition to force the ‘bribing’ to stop. Everyone should sign it, here’s the URL:
http://www.getmoneyout.com/
Well said, Lola, and so descriptive of where many of us find ourselves!
FYI: my understanding is that there is a BOGUS list of demands making the rounds as a measure to discredit the movement. If the one you saw is the one I’m referring to, it truly does sound very, very half thought-out. The latest info I read was that the OWS GA had not finalize a list of demands as yet. If so, it’s evident they’re being thoughtful and prudent about what they want to stand behind.
If someone has more current/accurate information, I’m willing to stand corrected.
In the early days of the British Parliament, members (mPs) were not paid. This meant that only the wealthy, the “landed gentry” could afford to participate. Although there were some exceptions, they of course mostly looked after the interests of their own kind, the rich.
In the early 1800’s it was desired that MPs would receive a salary. This was a huge breakthrough because it meant that at last, members of other classes could afford to run for office. It finally gave “the people” a real voice in government.
Look where we are today. Only the very rich or those with very rich backers can afford to run for any meaningful office. Joe and Jane Public are once more excluded. We’ve gone back to rule by the modern equivalent of the “landed gentry” and the “dynastic nobility”. We The People might as well go jack to calling ourselves “serfs”
There are three things that could change this:
1. Set a fixed amount that can be spent on electioneering. No contributions whatsoever from private, corporate, union or other sources. Anyone getting such funding to de disqualified immediately.
2. Adopt the British system where election campaigns last just six weeks.
3. Those in Congress, the Senate and other government offices are the equivalent of Private-sector middle-managers at most. They should be paid not one penny more than the average private sector manager. No extra perks or benefits, no exclusions from ANY law or regulation that We The People are subject to. Each should get a standard office and a maximum of one staffer if they want more, they pay for it themselves. They can share meeting rooms, copiers, etc. just like the rest of us. No one south of the vice-President travels in anything grander than commercial air/rail. Business class at most -and that only for flights longer than 2hours.
Reading all these comments, i don’t think ANYONE understands what is really going on. “Concerned Grandmothers?” “I don’t want this to turn into violence?” People.. you need to wake up and smell the b/s were being fed. There is NO freedom without sacrifice. I am in the military and can very much PREACH about this. EVERYTHING IS A LIE, you need to stop watching your soap operas and stop listening to “fixed news”, there is a revolution coming, wether you like it or not. We are in such a mess but NOBODY is willing to do anything about it, we’ll just “wake up and hear about it in the news” until one day it’s too late. Look at Egypt and the rest of the middle east, those people are DYING!!! DYING!!!! for their rights, we don’t even want as much as to lift a finger other than to type how “concerned” you are about this outcome. Join the revolution, stand up for what you believe in! Stop being scared! The only consequence will come from not doing anything. We speak of our founding fathers, of our heroic troops overseas dying for us, but were not willing to walk out into the streets and protest for what the Government is doing to us? we are in an ECONOMIC crisis, and all they care about is themselves, they don’t care about concerned Grandmother’s about hippies or non hippies, they don’t care about us military folk, they care about their own wallets. Stand up for what you believe in! don’t wait for others to do it for you, be the new generation! Show your kids that you were part of a New World Generation, that fought for what they believed in. I’m not afraid to die for what i believe in, neither should you. God bless and may i live to see a free mankind.
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